Roguelike Progression Systems

i think Everspace does the "spawning reinforcements" well, because it has "stages" of enemies that can spawn. Each one has a time limit associated with it, but I don't know the exact limits off the top of my head.

at first, it's just stronger versions of outlaws and okkar fighters (the most common enemy types). For a new player, this pushes them away from the level and onto the next area - but more experienced (or risky) players can stay and kill them to possibly earn a few extra resources.

afterwards, it'll spawn an Okkar Corvette - a chonky boi that's pretty damn hard to kill (especially with the starter weapons) and only spawns in later areas - but you can once again choose to stay and kill it. Most of the time though, you'll die or just leave since they're difficult to take down by design.

after that, it spawns a Colonial Warship - and those cannot be killed. You can damage them a bit to get some resources though, but you'll probably die by doing so.

i think the system works well since it rewards riskier/more experience players while also deterring everyone at the same time (especially when the warships jump in - they have unique music and everything).

haven't played Spelunky, but the ghost is similar since it turns money items into super-valuable diamonds, but insta-kills you and can't be destroyed. I wonder if the Everspace devs were inspired by it?

Sky Rogue should've done something similar, but stopped at stage 1 for whatever reason.

Thanks!

Incredible video and loved the charts. This research is gonna be really useful for anyone making a roguelike

This is so awesome. You should model your charts using machinations game design modeling tool

The graphs really help visualizing how "deep" the games are, it was really amusing seeing Sky Rogue's and it basically only having a single loop (kill stuff to get money, spend money to get stronger) after all the interconnectedness of Downwell, FTL and Spelunky.

I'm in the process of trying to build a game that I would call a Roguelite. This was pretty handy info to have on hand.

Great video

Doesn't take away from the point of the video, but I feel the need to mention that OR gates aren't an accurate way to describe the flow chart diamonds, an OR gate in a flow chart would look more like the part where you have multiple arrows converging on "Collecting Gems", where "Gem Room" OR the "Breaking Block" diamond outcome, OR "Shooting Enemy" OR "Bopping Enemy" results in "Collecting Gems".

I had so much fun with downwell but for some reason discounted it after a little while because it was a free ps plus game

I know Im four years late but that was an interesting video.
I am releasing a Roguelite on steam next month(Dungeons of Mysteria) Let me know if you want a key ;)

None of these games are like Rogue.

What a great video, it's unfortunate I only found it 4 years after the fact. I'm also deeply fascinated by the genre. I think it does a lot to move games from the repetitive to the repayable side of the spectrum. I'd love to see a part 2 of this kind of breakdown - given all the new games that have come out and all the new insights you must have had in 4 years.

Those ain’t or gates smh

Excellent video

Personally, I think "roguelike" shouldn't be limited to such a strict definition. And more or less in modern day has come to mean something along the lines of "A randomized game that you're usually expected to play through at least once per sitting." Because when you think about it, permadeath isn't even a requirement. Plenty of modern roguelikes have items or upgrades that let you revive 1 or more times. However, I think honestly at this point it might be more helpful to refer to roguelike as a game mechanic or adjective used to describe a game rather than a genre by itself.

If I ask you what kind of game you're playing and you say it's a "Platformer", I can get a good idea of what the game probably plays like, and if I'd enjoy it. If I ask you and you reply "Roguelike", that gives me little to no information. Traditional "Roguelikes" I'd argue should be called "Roguelike Dungeoncrawlers" or perhaps "Roguelike RPGs". But "Roguelike" here isn't really the genre, just a description. Like how a "Movement Shooter" game is still a shooter, it just also has advanced movement mechanics and a "movement game" doesn't really mean anything by itself.

You taunted me with enter the gungeon, dangling it in front of me, but never gave me the section 😢

A rougelike is any game that has the player start over, regardless of carrying over gear. The main focus is on doing missions again with RNG. It's called a rougeLIKE for a reason.
Rouge"lites" are phased out. Deal with it. If you play a game that starts over without carrying anything from a privious run then it's still a roge game. That plays like a rouge game. Both are rougelikes. They just might do some things differently. One might carry over upgrades or/and gear. The other might not. One might remember the player from past runs. The other might not.

Thks & aka state machine diagram

To be fair, Metroiavanias do fall within the formula of being open worlds where you progress to new areas by finding abilities in the ones you currently can explore. Beyond that they are typically portrayed as side-scrolling, action platformers so the definition is very distinct even down to their presentation. Legend of Zelda, for example, follows this exact same formula but we don't call them Metroidvanias. So there is some reasonable logic to a Rouge-Like needing to fit closely to the original formula.

Slay The Spire, as an example, shouldn't but called a Rogue-Like or even Rogue-Lite because it shares no similarities with the source material. Simply having a game with an evolving play-style based upon randomised awards and permadeath is literally just a table-top RPG or, in video game terms, a CRPG. netHack was itself inspired by the original Rogue and the original Diablo was pitched to the studio as being inspired by both of those games. So much as Metroidvanias established a pattern, so too had Rogue-Likes and it happened long before 2008.

Journey before destination ;)

The graphs are no longer available??

"OR" gates don't mean A or B, in a truth table it means "at least A or B" meaning if A and !B or !A and B or A and B. And OR gate is only false if !A and !B

thanks for this good courses :)

they aren't or gates at all

Ugh, what a bunch boring trolls argue about trivialities and splitting hairs, when good ideas are being discussed. Average minds discuss names, sound minds discuss ideas.

"roguelite" isn't a derogatory term. drawing a line between games which closely model rogue's mechanics vs games which only have permadeath and random level generation is useful because rogue's grid-locked, turn-based mechanics are so specific. if you spend a lot of time playing and talking about roguelikes, distinguishing between these two becomes pretty helpful.

but there's nothing wrong with referring to hades or risk of rain as roguelikes. i personally use the term "traditional roguelike" when referring to games that have rogue's mechanics, but that's just a matter of preference.

My favorite part of FTL's upgrade systems is the character stats, because if you find a fight that cannot possibly kill you, then you can use that time to just buff out your weapon and shield stats on all of your units if you feel like just sitting around and using weak weapons.

this was great, thanks!

By your definition, Returnal doesn't qualify as Rogue-like or Rogue-lite. So, what is Returnal?

I don’t consider myself a “roguelike purist” but I definitely would consider these roguelites and not roguelikes. I myself care about the distinction because it has become a major pain in the neck to try and find actual roguelike games on platforms like Steam when all it wants to show you are things like Hades and Slay the Spire. I think roguelites can be excellent games but often times I am not looking for those types of games

Talking about roguelikes
I think part of the reason why the definition is so contentious is due to how
If you give a person who likes metroid or castlevania any metroidvania, they will very likely like the game cause there is a set structure which makes it a metroidvania
This isnt really the case with roguelikes since the different modern roguelikes are vastly different from each other and thus are so far from rogue you can barely see the resemblance, even more so cause the "permadeath" of rogue was more a product of the time with how saves never existed and so they added additional flair to losing a run by canonically making the player character "dead"

This comes to a problem with modern roguelike as a definition also starting to include way too many games, or more specifically, it includes a lot of arcade games which do have random level generation and permadeath

!!!!!!! I DID NOT KNOW THAT OVERHEALING PAST FULL 4 TIMES GIVES YOU EXTRA MAX HP. I BEAT THE FUCKING HARD MODE BOSS WITHOUT THIS KNOWLEDGE. TTHHAAATS WHAT THAT LITTLE BAR BELOW THE HEALTH IS FOR. HOLY FUCK.

Roguelites aren't considered roguelikes because they feature meta progression which alters characters directly in all future runs. Not because they aren't exactly Rogue the game

The only disappointing thing about Sky Rogue is that it was featured in this video.

no cogmind?

The more I grow old, the less I like meta progression systems. Give me the full game already.

You fundamentally misunderstand the argument for these not being rogue likes. They are not roguelikes for the simple reason that you do indeed carry some progression over to the next run, for example new item unlocks, or upgraded powers or weapons. THAT is what makes it not a rogue like.

On the note of reinforcements being mortal, I don't think the fact that you can defeat the enemies Sky Rogue spawns if you take too long is the problem. Sure, stuff like Spelunky's ghost being undefeatable makes it a great threat, but FTL also uses a time-based system where it punishes you by spawning enemies if you take too long. But the reason they work despite also being mortal is because FTL's rebel fleet spawns super high-level encounters that can be hard to survive for long enough to flee, let alone defeat. All while you're taking almost-guaranteed damage from the environmental hazard of the ships in the background shooting at you, and the only reward you get for actually defeating the enemy is a tiny bit of fuel, on the off chance the reason you were too slow is because you ran out, but no additional resources are gained.

So all in all, the key to designing a threat that makes the player fear its appearance doesn't have as much to do with whether it can be beaten, and a lot more to do with whether you'll come out of the encounter worse for wear or not. In a good roguelike, skilled play means fighting enemies is typically useful, due to the resources you get from them. But if an enemy only appears to punish the player, such as in the event they take too long, the developer needs to ensure all but the most well-prepared gods will come out of the encounter worse off than they started, and even IF the player is super prepared and good at the game, they shouldn't gain anything from what's supposed to be a punishment.

Ironically, this means that Spelunky's ghost ended up being somewhat ineffective at that goal, but unlike the game's creator, I actually think it's kinda cool that you can learn how to use it to your advantage if you're skilled enough, since it feels totally in line with the incentive to get better at a game's systems to improve the results of your runs as you learn the game's ins and outs through playing.

I’m working on a small scale rouge like for my die or project at uni. Our gimmick is that you use a five card poker hand as your main attack. It is an isometric shooter so we are having a lot of fun coming up with ways to change how you fire those five cards. The balancing is going to be rough but we also want people to feel powerful by the end

super meat boy forest theme???

rougelites are the rougelikes that save stuff between runs

Can someone summerize this?

This is one of the best deep game analysis videos on YT. Please come back to your charting and diagramming ❤

In the mid 90s I was in a small group that played Mines of Moria. We had found it at the library where they had a computer with free to download(mostly Shareware)games onto a 3.5 floppy disc. I would be on the phone with my buddy while playing talking about what was going on in the game. "Holy cow, It's an Ancient Multi-Hued Dragon!". "Wow, I've never seen one of those!", "Use your teleport scroll", "it's hitting me like three times every time I move", "I'm dying, should I run?", use your teleport scroll", "ok, I used it but I just teleported across the room and he breathed acid on me", "dang, I'm dead". "Starting over, I'm gonna keep rolling until I get better stats", "Oh my god, it's the Balrog, I'm fighting the Balrog!".
That is still one of my favorite gaming experiences and that is in my top favorite games of all time.

guys, is very simple: you unlock permanent upgrades that makes the game easier over time, it's a roguelite. if not, it's a roguelike.



so although technically binding of isaac has a few permanent upgrades, these aren't significant enough to make the game actually easier. also there's permanent upgrades that make the game harder lol

People who can't play OG roguelikes always want to call roguelites roguelikes. Roguelikes are RPGs and has to be LIKE Rogue, as in it plays very similar to Rogue. Roguelites are like Action RPGs, just a branch of the original Rogue and Roguelikes. You like roguelites. It's not that hard to understand.