Can We Really Find Joy in Suffering? | Discover Christian Mysticism with Jon Adams

Thank you, Jon. I learned so much and realize how much more I need to learn.

Matthew 8:28–29 Last part Demon talking to Jesus "Have you come here to torment us before the time?” The time has not come yet!

Man, thank you so much for this message. I've been drawn to studying suffering as a theme in the Bible and as a result, Christian Mysticism. This is mainly because the Mystics seem to have taken a very different perspective of suffering. I myself have always gone through bouts of melancholy; it's not something that bothers me--I see it as "rain" in a sense: it's not depression because it's productive. Things grow from my periods of melancholy and I naturally withdraw from interactions with others and find myself deeply turning to God. I identify closely with St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul" and I usually see these dark nights as a response to "shakings" of fundamental beliefs I have; the melancholy that results is usually a response to the deconstruction. I'm standing in the rubble of everything I've built up and coming to terms with whatever's still standing on a strong foundation of truth and having to rebuild all the things that didn't stand. So even though those experiences can be torturous I find that they're productive and what follows is usually a refreshing and a deeper closeness with God full of revelations and insight.

I've learned in the midst of these things that I must become hidden; in the past I'd go to church carrying the burden of my Dark Night and the Toxic Positivity that pervades the world but particularly the Church won't allow any signs of suffering and much of what you talked about is hurdled at me. Usually my suffering is an indictment of my lack of love for Christ or focus on heavenly things, and I'm told to consider all the people who have it worse and reminded of how blessed I am. So I walk away not only with burden of my suffering but also, as you've mentioned here, that I'm a deficient Christian who's ungrateful and selfish. But the pleasant fallout of these interactions is that it does push me more inward and I seek closer union with Him and I've learned to hide my burdens from my church family. I've sought out scripture to see what the Biblical Precedent is for suffering & melancholy and honestly the model I see is that it's completely acceptable to be real with what you're experiencing as long as it makes its way around to the goodness of God. So many of David's psalms are of him wretching in the throes of his sorrows and wrestling with why everything is seemingly unfair ... but by the end of it he's worshiping God. The things that people in church say to me remind me of the words that Job's insensitive friends say to him in the midst of his troubles and in the end God defended Job to his friends. I love the example you gave of Jesus' moments on the Cross, and even in the garden of Gethsemane. I cherish all of the tender moments where Christ in his beautiful incarnation wept. The biblical model of suffering is for us to bear one another's burdens, to take up each other's crosses, to weep with those who weep and to realize that God is with us in the fire. Immanuel--God with us. Perhaps he doesn't take me out of my suffering, but he is with me and weeping on my behalf. And I can withstand any suffering knowing that God is with me in the midst of it and making intercession for me through it. Am I willing to become "Immanuel" to others? Am I willing to sit with them in their pain and suffering and shoulder the burden through radical love and empathy? Will I enter in, or will I merely try to throw some platitudes at them because I'm too uncomfortable to deal with their "mess?" This is a lesson I feel that the Lord has been teaching me; will I keep watch with my friends as they go through their own private Gethsemane?

Suffering has become a friend of mine ... I noted in my journaling recently that I still ask the same question that I have for years: "Where are you, God?" ... but the way I've asked it has changed. Years ago it was shouted full of exasperation and fury; a demand screamed in the dark with no expectation of so much as an echo of my own voice. But these days, it's softly whispered through straining, tear-filled eyes ... genuinely looking for his presence and expecting with curious anticipation to hear his voice whisper back, "Here I am ... I have beautiful things to show you." You're so right--we really have two choices of how to approach suffering and the more I've sought God instead of the comfort of friends I've found it in this place where deep cries out to Deep. Consolation instead of Desolation, as St. Ignatius might describe it. Anyway ... that was a lot I said lol but thank you so much for the words of your mouth and the meditations of your heart.

This message combined with your other video about viewing my life as a long martyrdom really hits home for me. I have a mental illness that is chronic, severe, and resistant to treatment. I'm not happy with what James said, but it's really I can do to try to find some sort of joy during or meaning in the suffering, or, failing that, endure it to the best of my ability until the severe times pass. I'm reminded of a quote from a recovering drug addict referring to his sobriety by saying that his daily mantra "I am sober another day by the grace of God." When I'm in the depths of my mental anguish, I like to say to myself "I remain alive another day, by the grace of God." I also really appreciate a quote by Saint Martin where he says "Lord, if I am still necessary to your people, then I won't refuse to live." To me, all this kinda hints at mindfulness and the focus on the grace of the present moment. I think that might be something that can help us all take joy in the suffering.

Where's your video's brother? We need your insights

It's all about discerning Law and Gospel (to put on a Lutheran hat for a minute). And that's all about context. Being a pastor or spiritual friend isn't something to be taken lightly, because you can be dealing with people with very different experiences, and therefore very different contexts.

Hi, Jon! I needed this. My mother passed away on December 8th, a little over a month ago. And on her death bed, she starts to recite this verse and asks me to finish it. I could barely speak… couldn’t imagine how either her or I could find joy in that moment. I felt amazed and guilty all at the same time. Because what faith she had to find joy in dying and pain, and why couldn’t I find that same attitude in that moment when I was supposed to lift her up? Then I realized the same thing you said… What other choice do I have? The truth is, in her dying moment, she was giving me a hope that I could live in joy without her. And although the pain from her loss is consuming, I have joy in her last words, hope in “someday”, and faith that if she can say that while dying, I can say that while living. Thank you for your sermon, and for that hope you spread as well.

I'm at that place rt now. In horrific debilitating hellish 24 7 pain n 99% bedridden, for 3 straight years. I'm tired of suffering. I'm not wanting to hold on anymore. I've lost hope to be healed.

Are you a pastor?

I just went through two of the hardest years of my life struggling with a TBI from a wreck and severe autoimmune issues, and I can honestly say I'm grateful for that suffering. Faith in God and stoic principles helped me endure what I was going through, but when I was healed, I learned some seriously valuable lessons from that suffering. It also gave me a lot of patience and empathy for those who have similar struggles.

Love this.