The Götterdämmerung Controversy | Hearts of Iron IV

As someone who does not follow basegame Hearts of Iron discourse (and has not played since the DLC was released) I was completely unaware of this. That is indeed not a good look for Paradox. Coincidentally I ended up playing as "the turbo Nazis" in a mod today without meaning to. At least its foci with names such as "expand the Arbeitslager" do not dance around the issue of why the national spirit for minorities gets removed.

They are depicted as kinda cool maybe because they are?? Duuuh

Why do you pepole care about this?

It doesn't sit right with me either. The whole way the game is balanced to make Germany a "viable" major power in world war 2 also doesn't sit right with me. From a strategy game point of view, playing as the Germans should be "hard mode", rather than "suggested pick". This so-called inner circle were monstrous human beings who committed the worst atrocities in history. They were also incompetent, and lead their country to total self=destruction. I'm not even sure they should be omitted from the game--they should be represented for what they were--people who brought nothing but misery and disaster to their country. This has been a problem since day one of HOI4.

Despite being of German descent, I find the German handling of WWII history odd, and the Götterdämmerung controversy by Steinwallen and others is a perfect example of this. Firstly, what do you want? The forced introduction of grey portraits across Europe? We know who the Nazis were, we know what the swastika looks like, banning them is silly. It's also just an example of how historical memory in Germany has perversely empowered extremists by making them into martyrs.

Ironically, this repeats the exact same mistakes the German government made during the Weimar Republic. And now some Germans want to censor a DLC for a video game because they're so afraid of properly confronting the past?

Frankly, there's also a bizarre act of selective historical memory going here. There was no outcry over depictions of the Kaiserreich and the reconquest of South West Africa, despite the genocide Germany committed against the Herero people. Nor has depictions of Stalin's bloody imperialist empire in the east prompted such feverish calls for censorship. This is despite the fact that the communist empire held half of Germany captive for four decades, replete with torture, killings and rape, and all of which are issues which Steinwallen was deploring the lack of explicit mention of in relation to the Nazi regime.

Indeed, if good taste is important, as argued by Steinwallen, then there are far more pressing and real issues than sparking an internet controversy over a video game. Perhaps like the fact that Germans are now so disillusioned with their political system that the largest party in Thüringen is not simply the AfD, but the AfD of Björn Höcke. Perhaps entering politics and dealing with the underlying issues which caused that would be a better use of Steinwallen's time?

Finally, I must also say that Germany's often self-defeating and contradictory laws do not apply to the United Kingdom, or any other country outside the Federal Republic's borders. Germans should keep this in mind when considering them, because their own contradictory foibles are their own, not ours. We should not be expected to abide by laws which, even in Germany, have not resulted in the desired effect.

I am unsure how Paradox could depict any of this in any other manner, as depicting war crimes in-game would not be advisable. Almost all the leaders mentioned in the video have been in the game since its release, with focuses and decisions that are fairly comparable to the new focuses. If your complaint is that the update/DLC does not do enough to condemn the most condemned government in history, I really do not know what to tell you. Perhaps Paradox should add an event every few weeks that lets you know how bad of a person you are for playing Germany.

People are taking this way too sensitively.

It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you wishes the game had the mass murders and Holocaust and what not. Yeah no, that would've been a big controversy about the game. It's one thing that mods add stuff like that because they're third party content that Paradox can't control. But for Paradox to do it, that's an different matter entirely. It would've been seen as tasteless and we could very well have seen it covered in the mainstream media, creating another Gaming Bad moment. Games like Wolfenstein and CoD can cover it, and have done, but those games are not at all the same type of game that HOI is and I think that does in fact matter. Because in those games you're seeing it directly in it's full cruelty, while in HOI that would've been boiled down to an image and some text, and maybe some debuffs. Image and text would end up ignored and the debuffs becomes just a mechanic that have to be addressed

"problematic", "moral issues", "possibly illegal". These were vile monstrous human beings? Yes, there are Nazis in the game. But this is a World War 2 game. The so called German perspective is so weird. I don't like that the world must conform to your morals, I'm sorry.

I really don't understand why this seems so hard for a bunch if people to understand. No, nobody says we need a Holocaust machanic or anything, but portraying architects of the Holocaust as some great statesmen is absolute nonsense and historically simply wrong. Just look at the promotional material of this DLC, how is that not obviously advertising some Wheraboo fantasies of Nazi superweapons and great acomplishments (which didn't even exist). Guess who actually had superweapons that could destroy entire cities, and bombers with massive ranges? The US, but weirdly enough it is not those weapons that are used in the ads, it's some nonsense Nazi fanatsies like the Hortens or the Ratte. HoI4 was treading a thin line before that already, but now it just went waaay too far into the Wheraboo-roleplay direction than was ever needed, though tbf it has been going there for a long time now. Apperently people care more about the next rediculous (alt-)history paths than any real gameplay improvements.

The solution btw is fairly simple. Just don't include this whole "Führerprinzip" horseshit. If the strategy game is supposed to be about military strategy, why does this even exist? The political system is so dumbed down that adding a bunch of focusses doesn't make it more interesting, it only serves the roleplay fantasy of a bunch of idiots and lunatics. Like, what do you think you do when you strengthen the GeStaPo or the SS? And btw, I had the exact same issues with the Soviet rework and Paranoia system, before anybody comes in here with some Whataboutism.

And as another comment stated, why is it always a base assumption that Germany needs to be an easy nation to play? They literally lost, in a decisive manner at that, so by any objective measure the easy nation to play should be the US, maaaaaaybe the UK. Germany, or any Axis power, should be hard mode.

Calling the way a HOI IV focus tree looks "problematic" is über cringe. Calling things "problematic" without proposing a way that depicting something in game would not be "problematic" to you is also lame. Unless you're implying that removing all the icons and making the screen look as boring as possible to not be "cool" would be the solution, in which case that would also be very lame.

Having warcrimes in game would be problematic, not having warcrimes in game is also problematic. Besides not allowing someone to play Germany, how exactly is this supposed to be solved?

I remembered how they made the Italians almost a chore to play as you had to balance inner party politics and the random wishes of Mussolini while fighting a war with limited resources... while also giving you the possibility of kicking the fascists out of power. While the game always had the contradiction of having the g*rms being the "beginner nation" to play, couldn't they just put an internal mechanic or something? Also, to those saying the n*zis looked cool... just remember those fancy hugo boss uniforms their officers wore were completely useless in the Russian winter or any actual combat situations.

Please don't be "Extra Credits" on this mate.

Their idea of throttling one side of player matchmaking, because that particular team has to depict nazis, went down like a lead balloon.

Any notion the comment section has that Germany should be "hard mode" is ignorant; this game is just that, a game, and it needs to be structured in a way that allows players to face one another fairly with an uncertain outcome.

Otherwise you are asking that a game of football is played with one team having been hobbled and the other not.

The novelty for spectators wears thin quickly; and for the actual team whom have their legs tied together, it's non-existent.

Paradox cannot sell a game that is mechanically broken, and to hobble Germany, regardless of depictions of nazis, would mechanically break the game.

I won't speak of the portrait. But as to the laurels, you're reaching, it's commensurate to all other icons depicted in all other focus trees, you're merely unconstructively criticising the art style at that point.

Played the new dlc and now realise we fought the wrong guys. Thankyou paradox! Very cool!

Lore of The Götterdämmerung Controversy | Hearts of Iron IV momentum 100

L take

junge ist das cringe

people when historiy being censured: 😡
people when somebody shows how history was: 😡

I dont speak enough German to watch the original so im confused about what the argument is here, Just that focus tree art for the Nazi High command makes them 'look cool'?

See how you commie euros feel when America stops supporting you welfare queens in nato

Putin owns your country

don't really care as a japan main tbh,besides talking about the ''glorification'' and the ''coolerfication'' the same arguement could be made when the USSR got a trailer and rework,a trailer mind you that has been turned into a two million viewed commie edit lmao. something i should dislike but i refuse to,because its just a game.

WOW those logos look SO MUCH COOLER than EVERY OTHER NATION this game is GLORIFYING NAZIS

Why do these types of people always conflate portrail with glorification? Do they think the mear fact these idea being exibited means gamers will be automaticly that?

People have different tastes and are entitled to their opinions, and I can understand why Germans would be sensitive to this sort of thing. My own opinion is that those advocating this as problematic are both being too sensitive and are cherry-picking. I do not agree personally that the new tree "glorifies" National Socialism because it doesn't advocate or portray the National Socialists as a good thing, it's thematically appropriate art.

Secondly, I would just like to remind everyone that this game is technically full of war criminals. The Holodomor achieved a higher death toll than the final solution, and it's an actual button you can press as the Soviets, if you press "The Collectivization Process" you're killing millions of people, and the "Cult of Personality" focuses are there to glorify Stalin. On top of that, Mao is also playable, but lets not get into that. Japan has swept its crimes under the rug entirely, and it's war criminals are buried in a shrine called "The Grave of the Seven Martyrs," talk about glorification.... The solution is to realize that it's a game and shouldn't be taken seriously, it's not a political statement or an advocate of anything, that is all in your head. The best way to prevent National Socialist resurgence is not to hide or censor, but to be honest and truthful about what the ideology advocated, why it struck a chord to achieve power, and tackle those head on.

Cringe video

The world has become to soft.
I don’t get why trying to be historical, or portray history is nazi glorification.
I am really glad the it nothing censored about all these events in my country, literally you can wave a nazi flag and nothing will happen, of course I am now saying we should do it but allowing historical accuracy and truth to be told and accessible, let us read and not repeat or avoid errors from others, all this to be better humans. It all this stuff was banned in my country I am almost sure there would be organize pro nazi movement, but right now there is no such thing, no even close. I personally in high school became very interested in Nazi stuff, thanks to my teachers, internet and local library I was able to read a lot about nazis and swastikas, not gonna lie, I liked all the style the names, the uniforms, then I kept redeading and eventually my interest shift, and the posibility to making me a pro Nazi vanished, then later with a few mates as well. Now I am a counterweight to new young guys that are walking the same path about Nazi Germany and eventually we all shift towards moderation but mainly because our thrust for knowledge was quenched

Also we locally are still learning to differentiate the historical nation and people from the facts, for example, if someone was a killer but a smart one, he still remain as a smart person, the killing won’t diminished the facts, and so on. In this case we could say the “Nazis were the bad guys” won’t diminished the fact that when learning their leader potrait and countries flag won’t have less weight than Soviet Union or United Kingdom, for example, sort of.

Lol imagine me an Indian HOI4 player doing a UK run where my country gets annexed. No one gave a fuck about that but it's a problem only when you game the Nazis Lol

In my personal unpopular not fascist opinion or what ever disclaimer you may find proper in 2024 to not hunt anyone for sharing a taught, the Germans were to some extend in fact “cool” (fresh, attractive, aesthetic), you just have to look a little through internet to realize.
They did have cool informs, weapons, engineer, names, beverages, even if is subjective, I believe is what most people think, as I said, you just gotta look up internet memes, communities about ww2, and so on. But yeah I get the idea to not make it cooler or more atractive than what already is.

Look my view is that it's history we should not Ignore it but I don't understand how it's glorifying the n@zis i just think it a L take and the people complaining are being too sensitive and allso it's a world war 2 video game the n@zis have to be in it or else it's not a world war 2 video game

i think youre stupid and balding

video games? fun? WHAAAAAAT??????

gamergate vibes, video games should be fun, not constantly screaming about correct opinions

I can't imagine being so pathological as a people that you think you need daddy government to ban pictures because seeing an O with a T in it might make your Manchurian programing go haywire. Especially since most of the heavy-handed censorship is a product of the postwar government's superficial whitewashing while hiring back a bunch of war criminals to do admin.

None of this is worth intellectualizing beyond how if you're delicate around the horrors of history, historical wargames aren't for you. You could already terror bomb civilian infrastructure, nuke major cities, use forced labour, use penal battalions, and deliberately plan your maneuvers around inflicting mass casualties. In fact, games depicting these things matter-of-factly and actually giving you a mechanical reason to choose to do horrible things is practically immersion learning in how people justified atrocities in history.

WW2 was brutal and inhumane, and the mere act of making it into a game or a movie demands you understand them as a fictional abstraction focusing on some aspects of the time but not others. The real people suffered and died generations ago, these are numbers in a simulation. And that fact alone lets you see the events from the vantage point of someone willing to let others be brutalized for their own goals.

But nah forget introspection, they're naughty for not making Germany an unplayable mess of debuffs and historical pop-ups wagging their finger at you for playing the baddies. They should feel bad or maybe just be banned.

Utterly ridiculous.
It's a game my dude.
I'm Brazilian and we fought bravely against the axis in ww2.
Our president then (yes it's weird) even sent a jewish communist woman to Germany (contradicting I know), before we entered the war on the correct side.
With all that, it's a game. A game

jew shill

Re writing this. I think the game needs to portray a his as evil not neutral as it does its odd that they don't make you feel bad for doing bad things

I think that there is some basis on your claims, but from a game design standpoint, its really difficult to depict a vile nation like the third Reich in a negative way whilst staying cohesive with the rest of the game. All popups within the game are generally altered towards their relevancy to the nation you are playing and its geopolitical views. The whole premise of hearts of iron is to bring the nation you selected towards whichever path you deem fit. I don't think Germany was given any special treatment compared to the other "good" or "evil" (of course both are subjective, ig) regimes in the game, its just designed similar to the other nations. If decisions were added to instigate the horrors of the holocaust, or blatant heinous war crimes it would be a different story.

As a German myself... I really don't see the issue. If you somehow don't know how shit the nazis were, you should probably take a history class. Trying to find some kind of controversy in the way historical figures are respresented in a game based on history, seems like a stretch. I don't think they look cool, these portraits look like any other portrait in the game. Should they all have their faces covered by shit instead? I'm sure you can make a mod for that. Plus, it's not like the dlc lets you construct Auschwitz or show you any warcrimes. Which I don't think it should, it's a game focused on leading your country through ww2 after all. Not a game trying to educate people about all the atrocities committed by various nations during that time period. The game should be fun, not make you feel like shit for wanting to play the German Reich.

You know the best part of Hoi4? It's not real

Don't like it? Don't play

I think it's fine as is, and people are too thin skinned. nobody is forcing them to buy or play the new dlc and it does not glorify H man.

Were you molested as a child?

He might really be a nazi and trying to hide it by being retarded.

I really hope it's just that people like this are so desperate for attention that they give the least charitable interpretation/assumption of motivations possible instead of actually believing this nonsense. If it's the latter, I implore you to go touch grass. Spend less time online and try to clear up your delusional mental state. Pray PDX has a spine and doesn't cave to losers like this.

Paradox must "sanatize" history to an extent due to the necessities of being a game that is meant to be enjoyed (and to avoid this very kind of drama). Sanatize is not to say glorified, but Paradox has a major aversion towards portraying atrocities in its historical games. The issue is that to portray WW2 accurately things like the Holocaust would need to be turned into game mechanics, and there are...obvious issues with gamifying things the mass murder of civilians for ingame rewards. Not to mention the controversy, legally and in the community, that can arise from the portrayal of these things. At the end of the day HOI4 is a game, nothing more--it's not meant to teach people about history, it's a product made to sell for people to consume.

If this was done to the USSR and they were “glorified” there wouldn’t be a problem, but it shouldn’t and also in this case but here we go…

okay.. so i'm going to be writing this as a Norwegian. someone who walks past Germans bunkers and memorials to the fallen Norwegian and British troops every single day.

Germany sent my country men to the camps, to the torture chambers, to the firing line, and bombed the cities while my grandparents ran for cover.
THIS IS A GAME. nobody other than people that chose to get offended over this cares about it.
i can start the game right now, pick Norway and get Quisling in power if i want to. it's "not in poor taste" or what ever word you chose to pick this time. it's a game.


"the Nazis look cool, and Hitler has a better looking photo" my brother in Christ. do you understand that this is a game? nobody from paradox is going around saying "hey, nazi stuff is cool."
"mainly how the nazi's are being shown here, these are people who are deeply involved in warcrimes" okay. should we just throw out the art work for everyone then? because i can tell you for a fact that not a single country has clean hands when it comes to warcrimes. the difference is that the German warcimes are held higher than others. nobody would play a Germany if Paradox made Hitler looks horrible. you know why? because it's a game. and the player has to look at it every time they open the focus tree. and no, having photos that doesn't look horrible isn't "problematic".

"SS means warcrimes" yes, i will not argue that the SS was behind a lot of warcrimes. but countpoint, would it sit better with you if they said "expand German military police" and just push it under the carpet?

okay, Himmler time. NKVD is a thing. Soviet Union has a lot of stuff build around it following the No Step Back DLC. how many warcrimes are they guilty of, and how many camps do you think the Soviets build? should we just remove those as well? or can we just come to an agreement that his is just paradox saying "Hey, this is the name of the military police of this given country." and not look further into it, you damn snowflake. because this is again, a video game. and agian, it's "problematic" because you chose it to be.

as for legal issue. no, not at all, Germany is the only one that cares about this. it's the reason why you had to grab a mod to be able to see Hitler for like seven years.

"Reichsleiter Todt is banned in Germany" very cool, do you see how again this is a you problem? because i'm pretty sure paradox isn't trying to get them to stand up.

"why make it look cool" my brother in Christ. IT'S A VIDEO GAME. players wouldn't play Germany if the focus tree said "you are the bad dude and you should feel bad for playing them."

Imagine needing to be constantly beaten over the head with the fact that these people were bad in order to not flip out. I for one appreciate that the devs don't treat us like children but rather adults that can be exposed to concepts without needing to have a moral lecture shoehorned in every five minutes.

Where was the outcry when No Step Back came out, the trailer was basically a soviet propaganda video.

Paradox has intentionally avoided depictions of war crimes and banned iconography in order to comply with laws and for ethical reasons, and it seems they continue to do that so it's fine. Would it be better if the Nazi path allowed you to build concentration camps instead of sweeping that part of history under the rug? I would argue the opposite.