Angel Talk || s1e15 "The Prodigal"

Both Angel and Kate didn't have their dad's approval and love. Kate did everything she could to get it and Angel didn't. Neither strategy worked. The relationships were effed no matter what the kids did.

this was a really bad ep ngl

Just finished season 1? Tommy Wiseau “Oh hi Darla”

And only 1 episode till my favorite Buffyverse character shows up. Good times, good times

I think the episodes they were talking about where the title might spoil you were Buffy 4*19 and Angel 1*18 ("New Moon Rising" and "Five by Five", which you've seen by now, so it should be safe to look at the episode title before watching from now on (the Slayalive guide has even been updated to reflect that). I really miss watching you try to guess what the title means at the beginning of the video. And we all knew what the titles were before watching the episodes the first time they aired.
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I always enjoy the flashback episodes.

I don’t think she’ll see this, so could someone on her Patreon suggest that if she stops loading up the show with the expectation that it’s Buffy V2 and start looking at it as a character study of redemption and fighting no matter what the odds she might enjoy it more and stop missing everything?

I was looking forward to seeing you react to the moment we learn that Angel's name "Angel" or "Angelus" comes from his sister Kathy thinking he was an angel who came back to her, or talk about it afterward, but you didn't mention it. You did notice it, right?
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I'm kinda scared you're going to stop watching Angel cause the first season is ROUGH but please, hang in there (little kitten), it gets better I swear.

I thought the actor who played Angel’s dad did a good job.

For Angel & Kate, they are both disappointments because they are not the sons the fathers really wanted. Liam couldn't live up to the expectations, rebelled, and after becoming Angelus did everything to spite his human life. Kate does everything for her dad's approval and even when she doesn't get it her love for him kept her trying.

One interesting detail from this episode is that Angel's very name is a reminder of what he did to his sister and family so he is never without the memory of his crimes. Talk about dramatic.

Editing Alley is awesome!

Editing Alley is getting a little dark...

This episode's flashbacks are super important to understanding Angel as a continuous character instead of 3 disparate ones (Liam/Angelus/Angel). Note what Darla says in the end: "Your victory over him took but moments...But his defeat of you will last lifetimes.” Now consider Angel's treatment of Drusilla and Buffy when he was evil; he did not simply kill them and attain momentary victory, rather, he inflicted lasting psychological damage. This episode is about the power parents hold over their children, even long after they're gone. Angel realized that power as a vampire and sought to wield it over others. Presumably in an attempt to get back at his father, whose defeat of him truly has lasted lifetimes.

I've been rewatching in pace with your uploads (more or less) and while I was watching this one I knew you were gonna be excited for it, with the flashbacks and having Kate in it.

I think the flashbacks show Angel and Kate sort of inversely mirroring each other, but also both ultimately wanting their fathers to think they've amounted to something and both losing the chance to feel that approval. They behave differently, Angel rebelling against his father and Kate working so hard to please her father, but they're both very motivated by that relationship.

Mr. Lockley's involvement was that he was paid to help some shady guys move some auto parts, so he could set aside some extra money for Kate, but the dudes (demons) who were moving the "sketchy auto parts" (demon drugs) ended up asking for extra favors. He didn't know about the drugs or the demons when he agreed to help them.

It's the parallel of Angel & Kate never going to get the approval they need because the only people that they want it from are dead

Kate and her dad are the opposite of Angel and his dad but with the same outcome. Kate is the dutiful one and her dad is the corrupted one killed by a vampire.

I see Liam came from the posh end of Galway. In that period therefore a Protestant, so he's Scotch-Irish, not Irish Irish. Unlike Doyle, who screamed Irish Catholic.
Maybe this was one of those "at Angel we do gritty realism" episodes, re-enforcing the fact that when the fantasy world and the real world connect, in this case the LAPD in the form of Kate and her dad, people in the real world die.

"She kept talking words" - Now that is some great quote of the day :)

Liam/Angel could never live up to his father's expectations and get his approval. Same goes for Kate, so the flashbacks fit perfectly.

I really appreciate the parallels drawn between Kathy and Kate in 'The Prodigal'...

They share a name, of course, but there is an extra level to it; Angel killed Kathy in the past (and you can see the moment in that flashback when he realizes what he did to the only person who loved him unconditionally) which absolutely informs his desire to protect (in the sense of not wanting to be as directly responsible for hurting her, hence his desperate attempt to save Trevor) Kate in the present 🖤

I think this episode is also suppost to show his past for people who haven't watched buffy. They are trying to make the show more independant

You’re not missing anything, the flashbacks don’t quite relate to what’s going on. It reminds me of this quote from Rick and Morty:
Jerry - Sounds like our stories were connected by a theme.
Rick - Not really, Jerry. Probably a cosmetic connection your mind mistakes for thematic.

I never really cared for this episode. The flashbacks are interesting. The Kate stuff, bleh.

I think the only connection with the flashbacks was both children wanting desperately to impress and make their dads proud. That’s about it. Everything else is different.

There were a lot of metaphors with father parallels in past and present along with a little bit of Oedipus with Darla, it's subtext

Bit of consistency issues in this one. Vamoires aren't supposed to have breath yet when Angelis rises from the grave he exhales a big breath.

Angel is the first vampire to be born without vamp face. Every other vampire has been “born” in full vampire mode

Angel standing in the doorway waiting for Kate to notice him.
I do the same thing because, I don't want to bother people.
Yeah, I should learn how to start conversations. 😳😁

2 words: "Daddy issues"
Buffy, Angel, Kate, anyone on this show has a bad relationship with their father.

But if you wonder,
Kate didn't have a good relationship with her dad. Angel felt like he knows how that feels, and that her relationship is still better than his was with his dad.
Side note, to let the audience know he has a thing for blonds. Specifically the ones who have a determined mind.

Just conjectures after this point.
This also ties into... how Angel feels attracted to someone who sees him as less and wans to prove them wrong.
Darla never saw Angel as her superior, Buffy never did, and Kate doesn't either.
While most girls think he is more than meets the eye. He doesn't trust people who think he is superior.

Kate became just like her father, too much even, that she put up the same walls that he did. They could never see each other and now never will.

The parallel between Angel and Kate (at least as I read it) is that they were both disappointments to their fathers and now will never get a chance to reconcile with them.

oooh... Editor Alley finished season 1? cant wait for Reaction Alley to catch up with the best 2 part story in season 1.

its weird you had so much trouble seeing the parallel they were trying to draw. i think its theyre both unapproachable father figures that want the best for their kids but because they are so distant their kids are unaware of it and it ends up destroying them. maybe you were putting more onto it than was needed?

And this is where we learn angels real human name was Liam (Irish for William) so ya spike and angel have the same name basically.

I started watching this for the first time the same time you did and I felt the exact same way you seem to do in this review. I liked the flashbacks and Kate and stuff in it but to me the whole episode is just very messy! Its ok to not like the episodes and I like it when your honest about that. You can always reflect on it later but I always think you have interesting reasonings for your thoughts so don't feel scared of sharing them! :)

I think episode 16 was much better and well paced! Excited to see your reaction to it!

It's normal and expected to miss things on the first watch.

yeah its a weird episode for sure

No "Buffy" episodes this week? Is YT giving you trouble over copyright?

people you actually gave her 543 likes for only showing hey chopped up 10 minutes of a 50 minute episode without commercials.

With regards to Darla's final speech, it helps to understand that Angel's key personality trait both with and without a soul is extreme obsessiveness and controlling behaviours towards anyone he loves.
As Angelus this results in his destruction of his own family, then of Drusilla's , and finally his targetting of Buffy's friends in season 2. As Angel you can see it in his schoolboy like attitude towards his love of Buffy and his constant attempts to protect her even when she doesn't need it.
Both personalities lead to the same result: Angel/Angelus destroys the people he loves. Compare Angelus watching Buffy sleep in season 2 to Angel watching over Buffy in the Thanksgiving episode. Angel's motivations differ, but the result of both is Buffy being off her game and at greater risk.
This is what Darla is foreshadowing, that Angel's desire for acceptance from those he loves is what makes him a monster.

Alley 2 episodes ago when Angel and Wesley were dancing - “I love this show!”

Alley this episode after seeing Kate’s dad murdered - “ I hate this show!”

Me - “Does she love it or hate it? I’m so damn confused….lol”

So many comment that Angle/Liam was seeking the approval of his father and failing, but the failing seems deliberate, Liam's failures hurt his father, caused him pain and anguish. My thesis is that Angel is a Sadist. An emotional sadist. Which explains all his actions from his carousing, fighting and seducing the servants, all designed to cause his father pain. Then as Angel/Angelus, he strung out his pleasure with Dru, and intended the same with Buffy. Even when he had his soul, we see his sadism with how he speaks to Spike telling him how only Angel can pleasure Drusilla, not Spike. If you look, every time Angle taunt's (or really torments) someone, he derives pleasure from it, just that with his soul, he carefully controls whom he unleashes his sadism on to only people he intensely dislikes, and usually whom he views as evil already.

Just gotta say, I'm so glad to have found another Kate stan.

Poor Alley, even after many seasons of Buffy she still gets attached to characters.

lol
Alley: Darla can't come back, she's dead.
Haven't you watched Buffy?
Dead is relative, very relative in the Buffyverse.

According to Buffy The Vampire Slayer The Watcher's Guide book, Angel's real name before he turned into legendary most brutality sadistic vampire Angelus was Liam O'Malley.

Liam O'Malley/Angel/Angelus is prodigal son. He have daddy issues. He's rich playboy with hidden heart of gold. He love his little sister Kathy O'Malley unconditional love. He's good cool big brother to Kathy as he's looking after her and protect her. Kathy is his humanity and anchor.